Nairobi Government Road 1960
It has become fashionable to claim, as has been claimed here on a different thread today, that the current state of post Colonial Africa is in part due to the fact that the Africans inherited an inadequate infrastructure from their white Colonial masters. In this age of political correctness most people tend not to challenge this claims , and allow blatant lies to become an accepted, if somewhat foetid new reality. However, they remain blatant lies.
More scenes from Nairobi
When the British left Nairobi in the early 1960's it had an economy equal to that of South Korea and a modern fully functioning mid 20th Century infrastructure. You can click here to see images of the Nairobi which the Kenyan people inherited in 1963. What you can see is a thriving modern city equal to anything you would find in Europe at the time.
So different to what we see today.
Salisbury Rhodesia circa 1969
An even more dramatic example is Zimbabwe now an economic basket case but once the bread basket of Southern Africa, does the image above of Salisbury 1969 look any less prosperous than any equivalent city in modern Texas?
Another image of Salisbury in the 1960's
You can see some film of Salisbury under white rule by clicking here and here that is the city which Mugabe and his gang inherited just over a decade later.
As can be seen here he infrastructure extended beyond the main cities
Owen Falls Dam Jinja Kenya 1960
Owen Falls dam from the other side
Kilindini harbour 1959
Mombasa harbour 1955
Kampala Parliament Building 1960
Kampala National Theatre 1961
The same building now
Kampala National Theatre 1961
A train arrives at Changanwe Southern Kenya 1960's
Kisumu by Lake Victoria before independence in 1963 was not unlike any rural US town of the period
An old Colonial Hospital
Mulago Hospital constructed 1961 shortly before independence
Makere University 1962
"Oppressed" pupils at the Kenyan Railways Training School in the 1950's (Kenyan National Archive)
Whatever, the cause of the state of modern Africa, it is not the fault of the infrastructure it inherited.
221 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 221 of 221@ James M - June 20 - PART 3
“...It appears that they were offered "labour laws acceptable to the Government of India," which, looking at the rest of those articles, was likely to include a monthly salary, or even a grant of land on completion of their contract.
Whatever the conditions, it is clear that they were far more viable as an inducement than the economic coercion forced on the African natives, and it was an arrangement into which they had also entered into voluntarily.”
------------------------
Oh dearie me! Before the British went to war against the Zulus and annexed Zululand to Natal, their territory was the about the size of Scotland where they had practiced their traditional lifestyle for many years.
The Indians occupied land around what is today Durban. From your reading/links you can tell me what their numbers were. At the very most the territory they occupied was no bigger than say the city of Leicester.
================================
"If they as immigrants could succeed why could the indigenous blacks not do the same on their own land which was reserved exclusively for their occupation?"
“Because the labour they were forced into was on, and for the benefit of, the railways and later, the mines of the Afrikaners, not their own lands, which of course would have made it hard for them to even grow their subsistence crops, let alone grow this surplus you suppose they could have grown any time they wanted.”
------------------------------------
Now this gets complicated. Starting in the Cape (1806), then moving to Natal (1843) and then on to the Orange Free State and Transvaal [ZAR] (1902) after they had been conquered in the Second War of Independence. the British introduced the Pass (“Dompas”) system. This was a passport designed to manage the migration of the blacks from their rural areas to the developing urban industrial areas [created by the settlers] The intent was only to have enough blacks in the urban areas to fill the required number of job vacancies.
Read all about it on http://www.nelsonmandela.org/omalley/index.
Remember this was long before trade unions and social security. For unemployed black people they were better off in their tribal lands where they had a home and could practice their traditional way of life and not starve. If they were enterprising enough they could have produced a surplus and sold it to the urban areas. They did not do so and stuck with subsistence farming. By far the majority remained in their tribal territories so all your coerced/forced labour is just uninformed mumbo jumbo.
The mines were not, and are not owned by Afrikaners. Trace the shareholdings and you will discover that the majority of the share holders are here in the UK. That is what the Second War of Independence was all about - for the British to gain control of the diamond and gold resources of the OFS and Tvl. To do this the Afrikaners had to be crushed and swept aside which is what happened.
Today the wheel has turned full circle. The British helped install what they considered would be a tame black Govt [ANC] after having to get rid of the Afrikaners for a second time 90 years later in 1994. The problem is that the ANC are talking about nationalising the mines. Why do think Pres Zuma was invited over for a State Visit to the UK a year ago? British investors are trying to discover what the future intentions of the ANC are. Add to the mix the fact that the Chinese are moving into Africa big time and it looks as if the “liberals” [Ha! Ha!] have well and truly shot themselves in the foot. There are interesting times ahead
@ James M - June 20 - PART 4
"NO THEY WERE NOT FORCED INTO UNPAID LABOUR Being a capitalist society THEY WERE ALWAYS PAID" “While I am glad that you have found the 'Caps Lock' key, it does not make your point automatically true. Do you have any evidence of that? “
“I have only seen that they worked to pay off the hut tax.”
------------------ Meaning? They were previously bone idle?
================================
"On the one hand you are opposed to the evils of repression. oppression, slavery, colonialism and apartheid and maintain that everything associated with these era's was evil and negative behaviour visited upon poor downtrodden black people in Africa" Not everything, but that many of the problems being talked about as inherent problems with Africans today are more likely the result of what was not so much evil, but cynical, brutal and short-term thinking. ------------------- And nothing to do with their genetic composition and associated capability? I take you are say that it is always the settler that is the problem?
Read: Why Africa Will Never Succeed
Continue reading at South of the Zambezi
================================
"Yet you agree that Africa is The Dark Continent - a technological, political and social wasteland" I don't recall agreeing to that description. --------------------
So exactly what are you saying in the comment above?
================================
"And you support the concept that all non-Europeans have the right to re-locate to Europe" Again, I don't recall supporting that concept. "and sponge off the system that has made it possible without adding value to it in any way ...Or this one. Are you sure I am actually the person you think you are responding to?
----------------------------------------
I think you have stated you support sanctuary/immigration into Europe for African “refugees” to create a better life for themselves
Hi Kilimanjaro
Have you seen the latest about the removal of Aurora Empowerment Systems from its controversial management role at the liquidated Pamodzi Gold mines? This has opened the door to legal action against Aurora directors, headed by past President Nelson Mandela’s grandson Zondwa Mandela and President Jacob Zuma’s nephew Khulubuse Zuma.
Click on the following Business Day link for the full story, it will make interesting reading. But if you were to ask me if I’m surprised, my answer, sadly, would have to be no.
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=144254
Hi all,
If you want a good giggle, click on the following link, which is an interesting rant by an African American pastor against African Americans and black South Africans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17m8OnHC7dQ
""
Are we still sticking to your childish definition of 'significant', where it means' completely world-changing? Because otherwise, that is a brilliantly ridiculous claim.
However, if you are sticking to that criteria, your logic ends up marking out quite a few different groups as being as 'sub-human' as you view Blacks as.
For instance, there are no women who have achieved your 'significant' acts, certainly not which can be compared to Newton, as you do. There are also no working class people. By your 'logic', that proves that they are simply incapable of achieving as much as White, middle / upper-class males.
"Sure a small number of Africans and African American have succeeded in the workplace and in academia but then no one contests that there are also some Africans and African American on the upper end of the smart group."
So, the fact that there are Africans and African-Americans on the 'upper end of the smart group', where they are above the vast majority of the population, including caucasians, says nothing about the capacity for intelligence of Africans?
I find this very strange, since you seem to be dismissing what you see as statistical outliers, while a part of your argument is, "they never produced a Newton." Here, you seem to be contradicting yourself badly, as Newton is one hell of a statistical outlier. In fact, considering his contributions to mathematics and physics, he is arguably unique.
That said, with his important works published in the 17th Century, it took more than 2 centuries for anyone to produce work that can stand with his (Einstein's Theory of Relativity, and / or Hawking's work on Black holes and Quantum theory). Why then do you get to write Black people off after only a Century and a half?
"Blaming slavery and colonialism may have had some validity some decades ago but the excuse is becoming more insipid everyday and just an excuse for the lack of meaningful progress in Africa and in the African diaspora. "
So, in your learned historical view, how many years should it have taken for the influence of slavery and colonialism to be corrected? 3? 10? 50? 126?
"Conclusion? Well one does not need to be a rocket scientist to draw a valid conclusion from the facts given above, it stares one right in the face. "
You know, the sheer cowardice of racists does begin to annoy me. There is so much 'it stares one right in the face', and 'we all know what this means'. You are clearly saying that you think Blacks are mentally inferior to Whites. Just say it. In another thread, Sarah let a poster refer to Muhammed Ali as a 'nigger', and he didn't get arrested or anything. If you think Blacks are inferior, just have the guts to say so, without all these weasel words.
Mr, Mathurin,
I thought I made my views clear to you. Which part of the following statement are you unable to understand?
“James, you must please study the history of Africa and the African peoples if you wish to continue and discuss these matters. I have studied these subjects at degree level with UNISA. So until you bring yourself up to speed on African history and thereby resist the need to be personally abusive, and enable a fruitful debate to be conducted, I am withdrawing from this discussion. Bye bye and good luck.”
"A simple typo duly pounced upon with your gleeful sarcasm as a pathetic defence as your ignorance is systematically exposed"
Hey, I'm not trying to jump on every typo I read here; a) because I am not arrogant enough to think I don't make them,a nd; b) because if I started on here, it would become far too time-consuming.
That said, if I was making a simplistic and fatuous point, linking the ability to read and write with intellect, I would check my spelling.
"Humans on the rest of the planet evolved these attributes and developed technology = parchment, ink, printing press etc. None of this happened in Africa south of the Sahara."
Exactly. They had to develop through a series of stages to get to that technological stage, and those stages required climates, ecologies and the social setups that Europe, Asia, the Middle East and some areas of South America had. Sub-Saharan Africa did not.
"“Why do we find cave paintings in Europe, and not find that they immediately moved on to writing?“ -------------------- They exist in South(ern) Africa as well - produced by the San (Bushmen)"
You did miss my point there. I was just pointing out that the stages European peoples went through in developing visual languages were identical to those in Africa, as opposed to developing down a separate path, or not needing to go through the same steps.
"Yes, all groups which had the correct climate, flora and fauna to allow them to move beyond subsistence farming, and diversify into more specialised skills.” ----------------------- Exactly - and South(ern) Africa where the black people live has all these attributes."
It does not, but why let facts get in the way? South Africa and Zimbabwe are the only countries with comparable climates, and their flora and fauna were definitely not the kind that allowed farming on more than a subsistence level.
"The white settlers immediately plugged into this utopia and turned into “a land of milk and honey” [Nelson Mandela],"
Yes, but they needed to introduce new crops, and import their own beasts of burden in order to do so. Their agricultural techniques alone were not sufficient to 'plug into this utopia'.
""Celtic Warrior has invited you a number of times to look around the space you occupy and look at all the mod cons that make your life convenient and then identify who and where these inventions came from."
“And I have pointed out why this, and the minor re-wording you tried, are pointless excercises, every time.”
-------------
Swerve No1"
Not a swerve, but I do realise that this was actually part of a different discussion, so here are the links:
http://sarahmaidofalbion.blogspot.com/2011/04/update-on-censorship-at-leeds.html?showComment=1304185583999#c5111803764671898877
http://sarahmaidofalbion.blogspot.com/2011/04/update-on-censorship-at-leeds.html?showComment=1304247436968#c801232988148584349
http://sarahmaidofalbion.blogspot.com/2011/04/update-on-censorship-at-leeds.html?showComment=1304194784391#c3793436184700970460
http://sarahmaidofalbion.blogspot.com/2011/04/update-on-censorship-at-leeds.html?showComment=1304327644732#c7018579105020573798
Apologies for the mix-up, the threads do all seem to merge into each other after a while.
"“Why should they engage with capitalism, though? And, more importantly, why should they be forced to engage with capitalism?”
Well why not?"
Well, how about because they had a system that allowed for greater stability than Capitalism has led to for their descendants? Also, since when was forcing people to engage with capitalism part of the thinking?
"Before negroid blacks made contact with white caucasains they did not know what grapes were.” "
Were there any grapes even growing in the region that became SA before the Dutch started their vinyards?
As for the question about land, I was not questioning the availability of land, rather I was questioning the suggestion that the only thing stopping that land from being suitable for western agriculture was 'working a bit harder'.
"“What exactly were they supposed to grow, out of interest?”
Whatever they could trade with from the white man "
You missed the bit where I asked 'exactly' what they were meant to grow. What were the viable crops they should have grown?
"The Indians (ex indentured labourers) managed to do so in exactly the same time and place with the same resources - land, rainfall and sunshine (as did the white caucasians)"
You honestly can't see a difference between the circumstances those different groups faced?
"“I have only seen that they worked to pay off the hut tax.”
------------------ Meaning? They were previously bone idle?"
Yes, because if there is one thing that characterisees subsistence farming, it is laziness and a life of relaxed luxury.
"And nothing to do with their genetic composition and associated capability?"
I see no convincing evidence to suggest that, no.
"I take you are say that it is always the settler that is the problem?"
Ignoring the typo, no, I don't.
""Yet you agree that Africa is The Dark Continent - a technological, political and social wasteland" I don't recall agreeing to that description. --------------------
So exactly what are you saying in the comment above?"
Read the comment in question - I said what I meant.
"I think you have stated you support sanctuary/immigration into Europe for African “refugees” to create a better life for themselves "
Well, first of all, just go and find the quote. Secondly, supporting refugees is a million miles away from what you originally claimed I had supported, which was, "that all non-Europeans have the right to re-locate to Europe"
For JM
"It does not, but why let facts get in the way? South Africa and Zimbabwe are the only countries with comparable climates, and their flora and fauna were definitely not the kind that allowed farming on more than a subsistence level."
----------------------------------------
A few years ago there was an article in TIME about the civil war being waged in the Congo.
I paraphrase a comment by an official from Medicines Sans Frontiers in the article:
"People are stumbling around in the jungle starving
when this region is capable of feeding the whole of East Africa"
For the record South Africa and Zimbabwe were the breadbaskets of Africa because of the capability of the white farmers. A substantial amount of their produce also ends up on the shelves of the major supermarket chains in the UK.
I know what I am talking about. I've seen it with my own eyes having lived in the region for 40 years and purchased the produce here in the UK. The sugar you put in your coffee probably comes from the KwaZulu-Natal. Some of the finest macadamian nut farms can be found in the Eastern Transvaal.
This agriculture is not subsistence farming but large scale commercial operations created by the white man. If you have the energy you can check it out on Google Earth. Mugabe has destroyed virtually all of it in Zimbabwe and the ANC are in the process of doing the same in South Africa.
Your ignorance is lamentable.
It is not my responsibility to deliver the education you should have received in high school and in tertiary institutions.
Trotting out your LWL opinions, cliches and blatant lies - i.e blacks were forced into unpaid labour - just does not cut it.
Like Celtic Warrior I am now also withdrawing from this debate. I have better things to do with my time.
Come back in a years time when you can demonstrate that you actually know something about the topic you are engaging in.
"The Indians occupied land around what is today Durban. From your reading/links you can tell me what their numbers were. At the very most the territory they occupied was no bigger than say the city of Leicester."
What does this have to do with what I said about how their conditions, "[were] likely to include a monthly salary, or even a grant of land on completion of their contract."
"This was a passport designed to manage the migration of the blacks from their rural areas to the developing urban industrial areas [created by the settlers] The intent was only to have enough blacks in the urban areas to fill the required number of job vacancies."
Yes, the job vacancies on the rails and in the mines which were the foundation of their economy. Basically, they needed the Black's labour more than the Blacks needed their money, and the hut tax was a way to force the Blacks into the White economy.
"For unemployed black people they were better off in their tribal lands where they had a home and could practice their traditional way of life and not starve."
So, we agree that they had no real incentive for entering into the capitalist economy?
"If they were enterprising enough they could have produced a surplus and sold it to the urban areas."
But if their motivation was simply to feed their family, what motivation would they have for that?
"By far the majority remained in their tribal territories so all your coerced/forced labour is just uninformed mumbo jumbo."
I'm confused. You seem so keen to stop me from contradicting you that you have filled your post with as many contradictions as possible yourself.
"The mines were not, and are not owned by Afrikaners. Trace the shareholdings and you will discover that the majority of the share holders are here in the UK."
OK, I don't see how that relates to any of my points. They were (and are) a major component of SA's economy.
"The British helped install what they considered would be a tame black Govt"
We're heading into conspiracy theory territory here. I'm intrigued, what is the background to this claim?
"The problem is that the ANC are talking about nationalising the mines."
If managed right (which I know is an absolutely HUGE 'if' in SA), that is a damn fine idea.
"I paraphrase a comment by an official from Medicines Sans Frontiers in the article:
"People are stumbling around in the jungle starving when this region is capable of feeding the whole of East Africa""
You 'paraphrase', huh? Assuming that you are being honest, or understood the comment correctly, I would say yes, with modern, intensive agriculture, and with an end to violence, those areas would be fantastically more productive.
"For the record South Africa and Zimbabwe were the breadbaskets of Africa because of the capability of the white farmers."
True, they brought the physical resources, the flora and fauna, and yes, the expertise that had not reached Africa until that point. Where we differ is the idea that those capabilities are somehow innate, qualitative differences between them and the Africans.
"Your ignorance is lamentable."
Really? But I already knew everything you said in the paragraphs preceding that comment. In fact, we know many of the same things, I just make different critical distinctions that you do not.
"It is not my responsibility to deliver the education you should have received in high school and in tertiary institutions."
If I was relying on the likes of you for that, it would be truly tragic.
"Trotting out your LWL opinions, cliches and blatant lies - i.e blacks were forced into unpaid labour - just does not cut it. "
That would be a pretty bad way to discuss these ideas, so I'll leave that to you, and I'll keep using facts, pointing out the errors in your thinking, and acting like the grown up in the conversation.
"Come back in a years time when you can demonstrate that you actually know something about the topic you are engaging in. "
Right back at you, kid.
"I thought I made my views clear to you."
Yes, and maybe in time I will be able to give a damn. Besides, while I am waiting for the apology you promised for the 'beyond redemption' comment, I might as well try to get you to look again at some of your ignorant prejudices.
"I have studied these subjects at degree level with UNISA."
And yet you manage to come out with such ridiculous rubbish.
Hi Kilmanjaro,
It seems that BEE is having other negative consequences in addition to those caused by affirmative action.
ABUSE OF SECTION 45 OF THE INCOME TAX ACT — which was suspended with immediate effect earlier this month — had resulted in a "raid on the fiscus" of several billion rand, the Treasury said yesterday.
Click on the following link for the full article in Business Day.
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=146422
@ CW
BEE failure - Yup - an artificial system is wide open to abuse. Peculiarly by the very people it was designed to assist
--------------------------
As for JM
He tells us he is well informed about SA and is thus suitably qualified to comment intelligently.
For starters he tells us the Dutch introduced wine making into SA when in fact it was the French Huguenots
Reading through the rest of his dross it is abundantly clear that engaging with him is an exercise in futility.
Withdrawing from the discussion is the sensible thing to do.
We can leave him to celebrate his own goal with his nonsensical last words and just shake our heads in bemused sadness
"He tells us he is well informed about SA and is thus suitably qualified to comment intelligently."
I didn't, but hey, I'll let it go. I was saying that i seemed to be better at critically examining evidence than you guys.
"For starters he tells us the Dutch introduced wine making into SA when in fact it was the French Huguenots"
Hey, I have never claimed to know more facts about SA than you. I just thought that 1659 (the date of the first Dutch crushing and harvesting of grapes for wine by Jan van Riebeeck happened before 1671, the earliest year François Villion, the earliest of the Huguenots, arrived in South Africa.
But hey, maybe it's just me, and time runs backwards in South Africa. It was probably just left out of the monthly liberal propoganda email I get all of my facts from.
"Reading through the rest of his dross it is abundantly clear that engaging with him is an exercise in futility."
Hey, if your aim is to only read the things that reinforce your existing prejudices, then yes, talking to me would be futile.
Come on, Kili, at least Laager and Celtic actually knew what they were talking about. You are just making them look like clowns by taking their side.
Hi Kilmanjaro
From the Daily Telegraph.
I could not find it in the SA newspapers.
JACOB ZUMA SNUBS MICHELLE OBAMA DURING FIRST LADY'S SOUTH AFRICA VISIT
South Africa President Jacob Zuma has snubbed the visiting Michelle Obama by sending his prisons minister to meet the first lady at the airport and failing to see her during her three-day stay.
For full report.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/michelle-obama/8589715/Jacob-Zuma-snubs-Michelle-Obama-during-First-Ladys-South-Africa-visit.html
Again, I have to say it does not surprise me. But then as an “old Africa hand”, nothing in Africa never does.
Yes CW
Wearing a Saville Row suit, carry a leather briefcase, driving a beemer and surrounding yourself with bodyguards cannot change what actually lurks behind all this tinsel and candy floss
@ JM
I have broken my covenant to withdraw from this thread to alert you to an excellent new chapter in the Pandora's Box series.
You don't even have to look it up.
All you have to do is go to:
http://mspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.com/
and read
SUNDAY, JUNE 26, 2011
Opening Pandora’s Apartheid Box Part 32.
Who does the land belong to?
By Mike Smith - 26th of June 2011
This is a great opportunity for you to escape from you self imposed darkness and enter the 21st C age of information and enlightenment.
"I have broken my covenant to withdraw from this thread..."
And I am shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you!
"You don't even have to look it up.
All you have to do is go to:
http://mspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.com/"
Hey, it is great to get a useful quote. It makes me wonder if it is simply that Laager and others just don't know how to link to specific articles (hint, click on the blog title and select 'copy link location'). For posterity, here it is:
http://mspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.com/2011/06/opening-pandoras-apartheid-box-part-32.html
It's interesting, a lot of broad facts I already knew, a few details I didn't, and probably some useful information for people who are only vaguely informed on the subject.
That said, there is some fascinating political spin, and some hypocrisy that actually impresses me with how shameless it is. However, I will perhaps surprise you by concentrating on some points he makes about the ANC:
"Are they talking reconciliation? Are they willing to work towards a commonly shared country by all South Africans? I do not think so."
I agree, and it is why I do think the ANC have had long enough in power in South Africa, more than long enough. SA could be a much better, more secure, more influential country of it elected leaders who genuinely moved towards reconciliation. The way the current ANC seem to be preserving Apartheid, and simply reversing its direction, is not helping anyone, Black or White. In my opinion, your country needs to move away from Apartheid altogether.
Thenk you very much
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